The following interview of Dr. David Pierce, Immediate Past President of the American Association of Community Colleges, was conducted in March 2002 by Elisabeth Barnett, Information Specialist with the Office of Community College Research and Leadership at UIUC.

UPDATE: Reflecting on your years in Washington as President of AACC, what do you consider to have been the most significant changes in the way that community colleges do business?

Dr. Pierce: In many respects, they haven't changed dramatically. They are still in the business of access and serving as a gateway for students to pursue their higher education goals, but there are some changes that are worth mentioning. Colleges are probably more business-oriented in terms of being accountable, in terms of thinking that the programs and services that we offer should be fully productive, and/or able to pay their way. I also think that there is more attention to the needs of industry and the community, and more precision in the way they determine those needs. Technology of course has been a big driver of the way we do business, not only in relation to the basic business operations of the college, but also the way we deliver our programs and services. We have many more options now, and we have the abilities to reach more people in and outside of our service areas and our communities.

UPDATE: Community colleges in recent years have begun to offer credentials other than the traditional associate degree. Could you talk about which of these has the most promise in terms of service to students.

Dr. Pierce: This whole area of credentialing is in a state of flux. It's problematic that there are many who believe that degrees as we have known them have become significantly less important over the years. Part of that is because we have not done a very good job of translating meaning to those degrees-what skills do these students have?-what knowledge sets do they have?-what can or can't they do? As this is taking place, I think that industry and business has become less patient with higher education and the whole degree structure. As a consequence, there has been a movement to look at credentialing and to attempt to have credentials offer more meaning.

For years, we've given certificates for the completion of programs involving less than two years of learning. A big difference now is that increasingly we have external groups coming in and certifying or validating these credentials. In many cases, these external groups have actually created the curriculum and the credential itself and said, "Look, here's our deal, get on board." This is not only true for information technology, but for other sectors as well.

UPDATE: Would you characterize that change process as pretty smooth?

Dr. Pierce: I don't think it's necessarily smooth, but some of the well known industries and companies have put a lot of investment into these curricula and therefore the colleges know that they're dealing with class acts. I think that overcomes some of the possible problems.

On another front, a movement that I think worth noting is one that's called the "career transcript." The person doing the greatest amount of work on this is Arnold Packer at Johns Hopkins University, former Assistant Secretary of Manpower and Training for the Department of Labor. He has dedicated his career to the concept of community colleges holding or hosting transcripts for people that contain information about courses taken, experience gained, and skills acquired over a lifetime. They include information on education not necessarily acquired by formal means. He has had a series of foundation funds provided to him and he continues to push the outer edges of the possibilities there. [See here]

UPDATE: How about baccalaureate degrees? There has been a lot of discussion about whether they belong in community colleges.

Dr. Pierce: Let me give you a kind of slow, unfolding opinion on this. First of all, the baccalaureate degree has not done a good job of serving as a certificate that communicates knowledge and skills. It has done a very good job, however, of serving as a passport to status in society. People who have the bachelor's degree basically have a standing that those who don't have it, don't enjoy. So, let's start there.

Over the past 30 or 40 years, the economy has changed, the nature of work has changed, and the nature of business and industry has changed. One of the major drivers, of course, is information technology and our ability to take large amounts of information and analyze and process it. As a consequence, the nature of jobs and the types of jobs have shifted. As that has unfolded, there has been a greater and greater need for more education and more knowledge on the part of workers. The traditional educational structure that we have in higher education is probably oriented better for the economy that we had in 1970 than the economy that we had in 2000 or might have in 2010. Therefore, adjustments are needed in our higher education structure so that it is fine tuned in the right way.

One of the things that many people believe is that there is a need for a new type of baccalaureate degree-the applied baccalaureate degree, one that includes more general education, more technical education, and so forth. It is aimed specifically at providing the right kinds of workers for business and industry.

Here is a good example. In Phoenix, the police department wanted a special bachelor's level degree for their police force. As the story goes, they approached the Arizona State University, asking them to offer this program. Arizona State said, "We've got a degree in criminology: that is our baccalaureate degree, let's offer that to them." The police department said, "No, we're not interested in our policemen having a course in criminology. We want them to be more skilled in how they deal with people, and their ability to communicate in situations that require sensitivity, etc." Arizona State then said that that was not what their baccalaureate degree was about. Enter Maricopa Community College saying, "Sure; we can develop a baccalaureate degree that will satisfy your needs." This is a case in point illustrating situations that have become more typical in our society and in our economy.

A number of people believe that there is a correlation between baccalaureate degree holders in a state and the ability of the state to attract industry, business, etc. For example, Indiana has restructured its higher education system because it wants more adults with baccalaureate degrees; so have Kentucky and several other states. Another factor is the ability of community colleges to educate students for a lower cost than universities. Politicians look at that and say, "Let's just give community colleges the ability to offer baccalaureate degrees."

UPDATE: What do you think about this trend?

Dr. Pierce: I think that if the community colleges truly start offering baccalaureate degrees, they will morph into university-type structures and lose their cost advantages rather quickly. Pressures will mount to shift and reduce loads, to have university-like libraries, and other structures that are like university structures. All of sudden, the community college walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it's a duck (or in this case, a university).

There have also been community colleges that have recently begun to offer very specialized degrees-like teacher education degrees. I feel more comfortable with this idea when there is an obvious need that the universities are simply unable to fill. That actually happened at Great Basin Community College in Nevada. The president of the college tried to get a university to come and offer a teacher training program in the area because there was a serious local shortage of teachers. And the universities, for whatever reasons, did not respond. So at that point, the community college took off on its own to try to get the authority to offer this degree, and ultimately got it. My guess is that they don't have aspirations of going beyond that. They truly are not trying to create a university. They simply are trying to satisfy a pressing community manpower need. I think that's probably going to work OK.

On the other hand, there's a community college in Utah that offers about 22 different baccalaureate degrees and originally said "We can do this without changing our community college status." But they can't; they aren't-they are basically now a university.

UPDATE: If you were talking to a group of community college presidents, what advice would you give on the idea of offering more advanced degrees.

Dr. Pierce: I would caution them and urge them to think in those terms very, very carefully and conservatively. This nation cannot afford, in my judgment, to lose its community colleges. We've got some good universities that provide very valuable and important services and we should support them in doing that. But community colleges have also played a very important role and we don't want to carelessly, or unintentionally, compromise that.

The day may come that we do offer quite a few baccalaureate degrees, but if we're going in that direction, I hope that its very definitely the applied baccalaureate degree. I also hope that the reasons that we do it are sound and serve the community and the needs of our business and industry-that we do not do it just for the sake of "elevating our institutions" to a higher status or satisfying the needs of faculty.

UPDATE: Any comments on dual credit? Do you think that community colleges should continue to build and further develop this option?

Dr. Pierce: I think that there is a definite belief on the part of many important policy thinkers that high schools in this country need to be restructured. Dual credit is an approach to that restructuring. In other words, if it all works right, then students are accelerated past their first or second year of college, and they save time in the long run, while the state saves money.

I do have serious concerns about the viability of dual credit programs over the long term because of the funding situation. At the present time many states are funding both the high school and the community college at the full funding rate for these students. This can take place as long as it's a marginal program or a program that doesn't have large enrollments. However, if 50% of all high school seniors in the country enroll, all of a sudden it would come to a quick halt because the money just wouldn't be there to do it. This funding flaw will become more and more important as more students become involved.

But this doesn't change the fact that there needs to be serious reform in the whole transition area- the junior and senior years of high school, and the freshman and sophomore years of college. Another big factor here is the fact that completing two years of college is becoming the norm in order to have enough education to maintain your standard of living. It wasn't that many years ago that this was based on high school graduation status. The more this becomes a reality in our society, the more it becomes a legitimate societal goal for all people to achieve two years of college.

As this happens, the inefficient transition from high school to college becomes more pronounced and of more concern. I think our society will probably decide that we've got to restructure the last two years of high school and maybe restructure the first two years of college in some way. In fact, there are plenty of people who think the last one-two years of high school should be completely redone or eliminated.

UPDATE: What role is the role of the community college in all of this?

Dr. Pierce: I think it is to be an alert, constructive partner with the education community as we all work through this together. This is a very important issue and does not have an easy solution; its going to take all of us a lot of effort to come up with the ultimate answer. Back to dual credit, I think dual credit is a good transitional tool, but it is not the ultimate answer to all of this.

UPDATE: What do you think will be the future of the associate degree?

Dr. Pierce: I think we'll continue to have the associate degree for a long time. But the associate degree has never enjoyed life or death status. It is not used as a passport to the good life in society, and it has never really achieved status with industry and business. At the same time, it does serve a need for some students and for some communities and employers. It is our ultimate symbolic statement of achievement. As long as we're a part of the higher education community, I think we'll have the associate degree.